Are laws more important than individual rights?

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Lairiodd
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Post by Lairiodd »

Kabane wrote:aye but at the end of the war german lost, but say he didnt , and i want noone to take offence to this but he would of wiped out the jews then any other race/sect he took a dislike to and hency the world population would be no where near what it is today
Hitler "only" killed 6 million Jews. Assuming he won, and expanded that killing to include a few other groups, he might kill 50 million people. That wouldn't put a dent in world population. Stalin managed around 30 million.
his armys would remain active to fight the rebels there for keeping ppl in work andbecuse german would be the world power and claiming 90% of it to tis self
Germany would never have captured that much of the world even in the best case. They wanted control of Europe (and N Africa probably), a supply of oil and a secure eastern border. Destroying communism was also a nice to have. Assuming that the US stays out and the UK decides to agree to peace early (or just doesn't declare war) that might have been possible.

That leaves the US and the UK as capitalist countries. Maybe the UK would start leaning towards facist policies as Germany would likely be a trading partner after the war. The US represents a massive component of the world economy.

One issue would be that the US is less likely to develop nuclear weapons if it doesn't enter the war. The world is lucky that the power to develop them was less likely to use them on a large scale (pre-emptively at least). If Hitler got them first, he could blackmail the world. However, in 1945 it was more cost effective per explosive yield to use lots and lots of conventional weapons than to use nukes as they were so expensive to make. The US was able to make 1 nuke every 3 months or so after the Japan blasts. Nukes at that time were psychological than cost effective.

The end result would also have been a cold war (capitalism vs fascism instead of communism), which capitalism would probably still have won. However, it would have been harder. There are also issues with how the pacific war turned out. The Japanese would have had serious issues if the US just was at war with them.
then there would be a Very low world dept. and if we had been brought up under the nazi rule then it wouldnt be wronge to kill "jews" as we all know right and wronge is just the current mass thinking at the time, Eg back in the 18/19 C it was fine to marry and have babysby someone who was say 12. but the current thinking is that its discusting and pedophillic.
Life spans have increased, in those times, a 16 year old would not be considered a child.
no they wouldnt they would just wipe them out and use the land.
Ok, we agree that it wouldn't be good for Africians then ? I am not sure that the is preferable to the current situation.
ok so you are the leader of country youhave hardly any defencive stand's and a world power comes along and offers you 2 choices they are, i want you to kill 100 of your ppl anyone of you choice Or i will use my power and distory your country and all the 100 billon ppl living in that country. Now you can eather kill 100 your self or you and your pplwill die youcan not fight the world power What do you do? do you takethe need of the many or the need of the few that help to make up the many?
Kill the 100 ofc. What I wouldn't do was kill those 100 in exchange for expanding the territory of the country. Dictators do that, though they exchange millions of lives for the expansion. Individual citizens may not think the expansion is worth the cost, but they aren't given a choice.

The point is that that isn't the choice. A dictator tends to say that the war is needed for the good of the country. However, they just want to attack and they don't care about the costs. Wars of expansion are never in the interests of anyone. Defensive wars are different. However, even then I am not sure I agree with things like the draft. Also, pre-emptive strikes can be defensive, but it is hard to know if the enemy is really going to attack your country or if the government just wants to attack them.
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Post by Gandelf »

Thandruil wrote:Maybe all the people with closed eyes should have a look at the past and what christianity forced upon the world.

But why do people always point the finger at Christianity? Is it because it's "cool" to do so? Is it because people hear other people slag Christianity off and so they don't want to feel out of place? I think people slag of Christianity because they are safe to do so... they know that there are no Christian fundamentalist governments in the world that can pronounce "Jehad" on those who oppose Christianity. If people said the same thing about Islam, then you can bet that an Islamic government somewhere would pronounce a holy war on those who oppose Islam.

The very fact that people can say what they like about Christianity, must surely say something about Christianity, i.e. you are free to become a Christian or not and if you choose not to then you won't have a death-sentence pronounced on you, like other religions. Jesus allowed himself to be executed because of what he believed. Surely, that must count for something? And, before anyone says anything, the evidence for the existence of Jesus is irrefutable, because there are historical documents from non-Christian sources that testify to his existence and how he was crucified.
Xest wrote:We couldn't have ignored it no, but the Americans certainly could.

But, they couldn't have, because a large population of Jews exists in the USA. The Nazis were close to developing their own atom bomb, which would undoubtedly have been used on the USA, even if the USA had not got involved in WW2. If the Nazis had dropped an atom bomb on the USA, the American government would have had to surrender, which in turn would have meant that the Nazis would have gone to America.
Xest wrote:Democracy can't really be likened to religion/other political regimes because in a democracy people are responsible for electing their goverment and hence can be held accountable, that's a contrast to religion and some other political regimes where people can blame their leader/deity to avoid accountability themselves.

Democracy is corrupt. In the UK news we've seen how people have been given peerages because they donated money to the Labour party. Also UK democracy is not really a democracy anyway, because it's based on the "first past the post" principle. What we should have is a proportional representation system, where every party is represented according to the percentage of votes for each political party. As it is now, the Labour party can pass bills easily, because they were "first past the post". That's not deomocracy, it's dictatorship.

There can never be true democracy anyway (or any true political system), because there will always be politicians who are "in it" for their own benefit and who couldn't care less about the electorate.

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Post by <ankh> »

Gandelf..its jIhad..and your kind of wrong. The US have more or less started their christian "jihad" against the muslim world. There was a guy who posted a thread full of what the christians have done to the world...I guess these facts means nothing to you?

"And, before anyone says anything, the evidence for the existence of Jesus is irrefutable, because there are historical documents from non-Christian sources that testify to his existence and how he was crucified."

You know..that doesnt make him the son of god.

Ah well..dunno why I bother...No need to reply to this btw - can't be arsed to argue with you anyway (or anyone else)

/Ankh

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Post by Xest »

Gandelf wrote:But why do people always point the finger at Christianity? Is it because it's "cool" to do so? Is it because people hear other people slag Christianity off and so they don't want to feel out of place? I think people slag of Christianity because they are safe to do so... they know that there are no Christian fundamentalist governments in the world that can pronounce "Jehad" on those who oppose Christianity. If people said the same thing about Islam, then you can bet that an Islamic government somewhere would pronounce a holy war on those who oppose Islam.
People insult islam on a regular basis. I certainly agree that the muslim world reacts worse to it than Christians but that doesn't make the insults any less common.
Gandelf wrote:The very fact that people can say what they like about Christianity, must surely say something about Christianity, i.e. you are free to become a Christian or not and if you choose not to then you won't have a death-sentence pronounced on you, like other religions.
Actually, as I pointed out in a previous thread on Pryd.net less than 0.3% of the muslim population in the UK protested against the islamic parody cartoons. I'm sure if someone said all Christians were arab murderers that there'd be protests too. It's not the religion that defines how people act towards that religion, it's the country the event occurs in you can take a box to hyde park and insult Christianity, Islam, Scientology or whatever the hell you want and I assure you you wont get executed.
Gandelf wrote:And, before anyone says anything, the evidence for the existence of Jesus is irrefutable, because there are historical documents from non-Christian sources that testify to his existence and how he was crucified.
Don't start this idiocy again, it's not irrefutable, there's absolutely no way to verify the documents as being the truth, being from non-Christian sources means nothing when there's already countless different religions which have some crossovers which comes down entirely to the fact that they stem from different peoples interpretations of the original story books (aka religious texts). No doubt someone famous did get crucified once, that doesn't mean he came back alive, nor does it mean he was the son of god, nor does it mean it was any kind of special event whatsoever.
Gandelf wrote:But, they couldn't have, because a large population of Jews exists in the USA. The Nazis were close to developing their own atom bomb, which would undoubtedly have been used on the USA, even if the USA had not got involved in WW2. If the Nazis had dropped an atom bomb on the USA, the American government would have had to surrender, which in turn would have meant that the Nazis would have gone to America.
They held off joining in for 5 years, there'd be absolutely no difficult in them holding out longer. Why the hell would Germany drop an atom bomb on the US? That would make the US join the war, Germany couldn't produce enough atom bombs to scratch a country the size of the US before it came to crush them. More to the point I'm not even convinced Germany could deploy an atom bomb to the US, they didn't have ICBMs back then. If the US ever really was at threat they'd have joined in far earlier.
Gandelf wrote:Democracy is corrupt. In the UK news we've seen how people have been given peerages because they donated money to the Labour party. Also UK democracy is not really a democracy anyway, because it's based on the "first past the post" principle. What we should have is a proportional representation system, where every party is represented according to the percentage of votes for each political party. As it is now, the Labour party can pass bills easily, because they were "first past the post". That's not deomocracy, it's dictatorship.
Religion is corrupt. In the UK we've heard about how preists love to molest young children.
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Moley:)
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Post by Moley:) »

<ankh> wrote:Gandelf..its jIhad..and your kind of wrong. The US have more or less started their christian "jihad" against the muslim world. There was a guy who posted a thread full of what the christians have done to the world...I guess these facts means nothing to you?

"And, before anyone says anything, the evidence for the existence of Jesus is irrefutable, because there are historical documents from non-Christian sources that testify to his existence and how he was crucified."

You know..that doesnt make him the son of god.

Ah well..dunno why I bother...No need to reply to this btw - can't be arsed to argue with you anyway (or anyone else)

/Ankh
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Thandruil
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Post by Thandruil »

Gandelf wrote:I think people slag of Christianity because they are safe to do so... they know that there are no Christian fundamentalist governments in the world that can pronounce "Jehad" on those who oppose Christianity. If people said the same thing about Islam, then you can bet that an Islamic government somewhere would pronounce a holy war on those who oppose Islam.
LOL, that's a good one. Never, and i do mean NEVER have people been murdered in the name of Christianity.

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Post by Kabane »

Gandelf wrote:But why do people always point the finger at Christianity? Is it because it's "cool" to do so? Is it because people hear other people slag Christianity off and so they don't want to feel out of place? I think people slag of Christianity because they are safe to do so... they know that there are no Christian fundamentalist governments in the world that can pronounce "Jehad" on those who oppose Christianity. If people said the same thing about Islam, then you can bet that an Islamic government somewhere would pronounce a holy war on those who oppose Islam.


It seems to me that someone has decided to neglect to remmber the Holy Crusade or the mass of missionarys to convert the African and other 3rd world heathens to christanity,(and pick up a few slaves whille their there.)
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Post by Gandelf »

Xest wrote:Don't start this idiocy again, it's not irrefutable, there's absolutely no way to verify the documents as being the truth, being from non-Christian sources means nothing when there's already countless different religions which have some crossovers which comes down entirely to the fact that they stem from different peoples interpretations of the original story books (aka religious texts). No doubt someone famous did get crucified once, that doesn't mean he came back alive, nor does it mean he was the son of god, nor does it mean it was any kind of special event whatsoever.

I'm not talking about anything other than the historical truth of a man named Jesus who was publicly executed. It is well documented in official Roman records of the time that a man named Jesus was executed. As you know, at that time the Romans were not Christians, they still believed in a pantheon of Gods. These documents have been verified as been authentic. Naturally, the Romans don't make any religious claims about who Jesus was, just that he was a man who was tried and executed. That's irrefutable evidence. It's not religious in any way, but it's irrefutable, official Roman documentation. Just because it's 2,000 years old doesn't make it less creditable. If the age of documented evidence were used as the method for determining the accuracy of such material, who would have the authority to say how old such material has to be for it to be confirmed as genuine? I for example, could say that the evidence about Guy Fawkes was not irrefutable because it's over 300 years old. But, we accept it as true. So, why do you have a problem with accepting 2,000-year-old non-religious, official Roman evidence? It's not the Bible, but recorded fact.

The account of Jesus' life in the New Testament synoptic Gospels, coincides with the Roman documentation, as well as documentation found in the Talmud. Three very different sources, with different view points on the life of Jesus, recorded by people from different backgrounds in the society of the time.

So, I'm not making any other statement, other than the fact that a man named Jesus did exist and that it was the same man who is recorded in at least three different sources. That's irrefutable fact.

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Post by Gandelf »

Kabane wrote:It seems to me that someone has decided to neglect to remmber the Holy Crusade or the mass of missionarys to convert the African and other 3rd world heathens to christanity,(and pick up a few slaves whille their there.)

Acknowledged. The problem is however not true religion, but the greed of man!

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Post by Gandelf »

<ankh> wrote:Gandelf..its jIhad..and your kind of wrong. The US have more or less started their christian "jihad" against the muslim world./Ankh

But you're are incorrect with that statement, because the American Government isn't a Christian fundamentalist government and it was voted in by Americans who are of every different colour, religious belief, political persuasion, or belief in no god at all! I'm not saying that what has happened is right, but that the American Government isn't a fundamentalist Christian government, in the same way as other governments around the world are.

(thanks for the correction re the spelling of "Jihad. By the way, it's "Christian" with a capital "C")

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