Plat/PLing for cash... Can it be stopped?

[Requiel]

A lot of points to cover, I'll try and answer as many of the relevant ones as I can.
Firstly let's look at the playerbase. I'm pretty sure that If I asked any random player ingame or on a forum (especially on a forum) what the majority of players spent their time ingame doing I'd get the answer 'RvRing or preparing a character for RvR'. This is actually false. There are a huge number of players, who are mostly invisible to the hardcore RvR crowd, who spend all their time levelling a character, getting a few easy artifacts and MLs etc, then starting another one. These players don't PL, they very rarely venture into RvR and they don't have many aspirations in game beyond getting their latest project to 50 and perhaps getting a nice piece of kit from a FFA raid. These are the staple players of the game and the ones that Mythic need to keep happy with content patches. The hardcore RvR crowd are a tiny - albeit highly vocal - minority ingame and pandering to their wishes at the expense of the vast mass of casuals will lose Mythic/Goa more susbscriptions than if every single VN or FH warrior quit instantly.

Why do people pay to bypass content? Partly it's because people are lazy and some will take any opportunity to get an advantage. Partly it's because there's a popular perception that the 'real game' is level 50 RvR and that, for the cool kids, PvE is beneath them. A lot of people are dazzled by this viewpoint and want to emulate it even though they've never experienced DAoC PvE - I despair everthime I see a new player on FH begging for PL. For some people they truly may not enjoy PvE, and I have to say I agree with them. If I did PvE the way that those people did it, I'd not enjoy it either. It's a self fulfilling prophecy, they dislike PvE so they find a way to make it as automatic and dull as possible then complain that it's no fun.

I'll put an older hat of mine on now, that of games developer. What is the purpose of playing a game? Assuming that there's no prizes of any kind on offer, the point of playing the game is to play the game. It's as simple as that. No matter what the game, the point of playing is to play. You take nothing away from a game of Monopoly except the experience of the game play and a certain amount of bragging rights. DAoC is the same. You may get a fleeting amount of notoriety from your exploits ingame but ultimately you recieve nothing from the game except the gameplay. For a games developer therefore, the game play is king, it is sacred and must be held above all else. Allowing people to bypass your content is basically admitting that you made a sucky product and they may not enjoy all the content you filled the game with. If people feel the need to bypass your content then either you've not packaged it attractively enough, you're targetting the wrong players with it or it just plain sucks. There is nothing wrong with the content in DAoC, there is a lot of variety to cater for different playstyles - frenzied XPers, explorers, soloers, those after a group challenge, epic challenges etc. My personal opinion is that just as players created the perception that bots were needed, players created the perception that anything other than level 50 RvR was worthless and so I think the issue with DAoC PvE is that it's a mixture of not being packaged attractively enough and targetting the wrong players. It's solid and workable but it has a rather unfair reputation as being staid and boring, promulgated in the main by the vocal players who have decided that the smallest part of the game content is the only valid part.

So what does all this have to do with the buffbots and the rights and wrongs of buying plat from ebay? Well, firstly buffbots don't allow you to bypass actually playing the game. I'll grant that they make the game easier and in a lot of cases survivable, however they aren't an instant ticket to success. You don't suddenly get a full template on your main toon as soon as your bot dings 50. Borrowing buffs from a friends' bot will not grant you the additional abilities that other players had to play and farm for. Games like DAoC, that is games which use a subscription based system, are designed to get you to pay your subscription for the longest possible period of time. They do this by not giving you everything at once, there's always another carrot a bit further on. If you subscribe for another month, you may get another 50, you might finally make the next realm rank. You could join that raid and get the template you dreamed of, you might be able to get a new title etc. Obviously a developer needs to make the process of obtaining those carrots fun and involving which is where the discussion of game play being it's own reward comes in. Being able to buy your way past that game play is a disaster for the developer and damaging to the game as a whole.

About solo players. A lot of players prefer to play solo, some do so through necessity. The game does need to cater for those players by giving them things they can achieve (which DAoC does quite well I think) but I think it is a mistake to open up the whole game to that playstyle. At heart MMOs are about co-operation and interacting with other players, you know, massively multiplayer. If you can do the whole game solo, then it makes the social aspect of the game largely irrelevant and the community fragments. Games like this have a closely knit and loyal community because of the bonds they forge ingame. If you read the forums for single player games, the community is not nearly as tight because the social aspect of the gameplay is missing. By encouraging players to group and putting rewards ingame which can only be achieved by several (perhaps many) players working together, the developers can build a stronger and more loyal community - and communities much more than content dictate the lifespan and profitability of a game.

That was a longer reply than I intended but I'll be happy to revisit and expand on any of my points for those interested.

[Cryn]

Requiel, I think you need to go recalibrate your perceptions, possibly with some time away from MMORPG players. No offence intended

Why do people pay to bypass content? Partly it's because people are lazy

Laziness should not be an issue. We are talking about a recreational passtime that - frankly - is often people's alternative to doing some other MORE worthwhile recreation (e.g. exercise). We know there is an element of laziness to it. We LAUNCH the game to some extent because we are lazy.

However, as you said, we should think about why people play games. They don't play to play. They play to be entertained. What they take away from it is enjoyment. You can't pay some scam artist to enjoy the game for you. If you are paying them to bypass bits of the game, it's because you don't feel you would have been enjoying them playing it yourself. (I'd like to stress at this point I would never pay someone for any reason and don't condone others doing it).

and some will take any opportunity to get an advantage.

In most situations, once a game and server has been running some time, you cannot actually get much advantage paying someone else to play for you. There's nothing they can achieve on your behalf that you could not achieve for yourself, if you were happy to spend the time doing it. Therefore, asking them to do it for you is an indication you do not want to do it yourself, which as I said above points to the fact you are not being entertained by that part of the game.

Partly it's because there's a popular perception that the 'real game' is level 50 RvR and that, for the cool kids, PvE is beneath them.

I honestly don't think this could be a root cause. The only way a situation of people perceiving PvE as beneath them could come about (and I agree some people project that attitude) is if there was some underlying aspect of that PvE that they objected to.

In the case of DAoC, if you'll excuse me knocking the product I've enjoyed a lot over the years for a bit, I would suggest that the mindless repetition of the old style hunting may have given grounds for some people treating that aspect of the game with contempt. Let's face it, the basics of pulling and killing are not difficult to master, and at one time DAoC (and many other games) essentially involved doing it over, and over, and over for many hours.

For a games developer therefore, the game play is king, it is sacred and must be held above all else. Allowing people to bypass your content is basically admitting that you made a sucky product and they may not enjoy all the content you filled the game with. If people feel the need to bypass your content then either you've not packaged it attractively enough, you're targetting the wrong players with it or it just plain sucks.

While I can see why you would think this, I believe it is unrealistic to expect ANY passtime based upon static content and repeated tasks to remain enjoyable as long as MMORPGs live. The social side of online games has been a big factor in keeping people interested in what would otherwise be mind-numbingly dull pursuits (after the 100th iteration, or whatever). I wonder how many authors would count their novels as "sucky" if a reader skipped a section during their 100th reading of the same book.

I'm certain some games developers have recognised this and the breadth, depth and number of expansions of content reflect this acknowledgement to some extent. It then becomes a question of drawing lines. How often can we afford to create quality content? How can we make it manageable? How long can we expect the existing content to remain engaging to the player base?

Personally, I think investment in tools and creatives is the future. Get your mechanics down, find a decent world setting, then provide enough GMs and decent tools to make the content renew fairly quickly. You'd need to be clever with game-balance-neutral rewards for content completion, but there are a number of options in that area (housing/decorations, trophies, badges, prestige, clothing, etc).

The days of using XP as a carrot in my view should be numbered. Leveling is an empty achievement compared to what we could offer players, and - I believe - is a symptom of laziness, lack of imagination, and/or lack of investment from the game creators.

[Xest]

Main reason I find DAoC PvE dull and hence PL my chars with a necro or whatever is because PvE (levelling type PvE, not so much high end stuff) in DAoC is skilless and entirely unchallenging. I want to be able to strafe round a monster in combat to perform positionals and without being penalised for actually trying harder (ala you were strafing in combat and miss), I want to be able to kite a hard enemy, perhaps CC him and rest up before continuing the fight without some stupid anti-kiting code healing the monster back up at a silly rate. I think the core issue is that DAoC PvE is simply too binary - it's too much of a "you can kill this no matter what" or "you can't kill this no matter what", there's no "you can kill this if you play well" and hence get a big XP bonus for it. You should be able to strafe low purples to use special styles on them to work them, or kite them and deal with them using tactics like that and when you do kill them you should get rewarded for it, rather than just get the same xp as you'd get for an orange or whatever. Any idea why Mythic did dumb DAoC down with the strafing in combat and anti-kite code? Is it to ensure that lesser skilled people can compete with more skilled people? It's something I've never understood, perhaps my vision of this type of game is wrong but I always felt skill should be rewarded else to me, there's little point playing bar the social aspect.

I think you're right in what you say Requiel, but I think the problem is entirely that DAoC PvE is far too dull for people to want to do much of it. Since before US beta also Mythic sold DAoC as a primarily PvP focussed game, so it's not particularly unfair of people who enjoy PvP to expect the game to be focussed towards them when there's been no official notice of a change in the game's concept and vision in that respect.

All that said, I do kinda feel that bots are still entirely unjustified and are a problem that could have been resolved all the way through - there are plenty of opportunities Mythic could have taken to resolve the issue but haven't and I think many other people have noticed this, this is why you'll have to excuse me and perhaps other people for still beleiving bots and nothing but a money grab. I think even providing potions that give you all buffbot buffs for 30mins and cost a few gold each would at least be enough to please many people.

One final point I'd like to make that I don't think has really been addressed is players who have little time. If someone works long hours doing a well paid job, they're going to be unable to play enough to compete in DAoC, so for these people it makes sense to pay someone to PL their character or buy gold or whatever, because their time is worth more than the money it'd cost to buy these services. What is your position on people in this situation? Do you feel they should simply not play because the game doesn't cater to people who can only spend a short time in game each week or perhaps even every few weeks? Ironically I'd have thought these type of people would be your best customer because they use minimal resources yet pay the same rate as anyone. Does shutting down PL/Plat farming not lose you these type of customers? I have a feeling you're going to tell me that you feel people can play with only 30mins a week or so but if so I think that's where our thoughts differ it can take 4 times that length to even get a PvE group and soloing is out the window for some classes etc.

[clearbrook]

, I believe it is unrealistic to expect ANY passtime based upon static content and repeated tasks to remain enjoyable as long as MMORPGs live.

What about soccer, rugby, tennis, chess, mah-jogn (sp) etc, they all have static content (ok soccer rules change every couple of hours nowadays...).

Most fun passtimes are basically just doing the same thing time after time with a bunch of people you enjoy

[Cryn]

With the exception of Mah Jong, those are played against humans, so would not be considered PvE in any case.

Even for Mah Jong, or computer games versions of the others, you're not playing against static content. You may think so, because the game MECHANICS do not change, but the CONTENT of those games is extremely varied because it is made up of complex sets of actions from the participants, and with enough permutations, repetition is minimized. Possibly the best example to use is chess. When chess computers were older and less powerful, they WERE more prone to repeating strategies or using predictable responses, and after a number of matches against one it became very dull.

However, I do take your point. To some extent people playing certain other games (perhaps driving games) are repeating something and enjoying it. In those cases, I think it goes back to something Requiel said, and it is the challenge making it exciting. Unfortunaltely, the nature of MMORPG PvE generally means that you can get a handle on how to win it quite quickly, and the challenge disappears. Where you are relying on quests or simple aggression-management game mechanics, the first run through is quite likely to be the only one with any sense of challenge.

[Gahn]

...Stuff
Why do people pay to bypass content? Partly it's because people are lazy and some will take any opportunity to get an advantage. Partly it's because there's a popular perception that the 'real game' is level 50 RvR and that, for the cool kids, PvE is beneath them. A lot of people are dazzled by this viewpoint and want to emulate it even though they've never experienced DAoC PvE - I despair everthime I see a new player on FH begging for PL. For some people they truly may not enjoy PvE, and I have to say I agree with them. If I did PvE the way that those people did it, I'd not enjoy it either. It's a self fulfilling prophecy, they dislike PvE so they find a way to make it as automatic and dull as possible then complain that it's no fun.

My personal opinion is that just as players created the perception that bots were needed, players created the perception that anything other than level 50 RvR was worthless and so I think the issue with DAoC PvE is that it's a mixture of not being packaged attractively enough and targetting the wrong players. It's solid and workable but it has a rather unfair reputation as being staid and boring, promulgated in the main by the vocal players who have decided that the smallest part of the game content is the only valid part.

I found this quite odd coming from u Requiel]
About solo players. A lot of players prefer to play solo, some do so through necessity. The game does need to cater for those players by giving them things they can achieve (which DAoC does quite well I think) but I think it is a mistake to open up the whole game to that playstyle. At heart MMOs are about co-operation and interacting with other players, you know, massively multiplayer. If you can do the whole game solo, then it makes the social aspect of the game largely irrelevant and the community fragments. Games like this have a closely knit and loyal community because of the bonds they forge ingame. If you read the forums for single player games, the community is not nearly as tight because the social aspect of the gameplay is missing. By encouraging players to group and putting rewards ingame which can only be achieved by several (perhaps many) players working together, the developers can build a stronger and more loyal community - and communities much more than content dictate the lifespan and profitability of a game.

That was a longer reply than I intended but I'll be happy to revisit and expand on any of my points for those interested.[/QUOTE]

I'm sorry but again that part is quite untrue, as a solo player u can't get the best gear out there, pair it with the Buffbots unbalance (if u don't have one) and your solo experience will start and finish typing /release.
Also the perception (sp?) that solo players "cheats" somehow the MMO spirit is quite untrue, u know better than me that the "solo" and "non adding" crew tends to build a Community per se which maybe doesn't use in game tools to communicate and keep it alive, but non the less IT is a Community of your game with their rules and so on.

[Ovi]

I think SoE took a step in the right direction by having servers specifically where trading was allowed. Not sure how their trial went with EQ2, since I stopped playing SoE games at about that time.

The idea that there are servers where people can spend cold hard cash for advancement caters for those that Xest pointed out have more money than time.

I personally still would not pay, if I don't enjoy the content enough to play it myself then really I should be looking for a different game.

Part of the problem with MMORPGs, as Cryn pointed out, is that they nearly all rely on some form of levelling, before reaching "end-game". Once you reach the end-game the game can change dramatically. It certainly changes dramatically for DAoC. I can see why people who really only want to RvR may be tempted to avoid the levelling content.

There really is no excuse for not fixing the BB issue, as Xest said there have been opportunities that have been missed along the way, and it does look like they are missed for a reason. As to upsetting the Buffing classes, I really can't see many people actively playing BB spec characters, certainly not just for the buffs.

It's not just about finding friends who can buff, the whole situation is just wrong. The last time I joined an RvR group we needed 3 BBs to fully buff before each run, and that was even though my Druid's buffs were almost as good. Just because I didn't personally use a BB, doesn't mean I didn't need to benefit from one.

Even a simple change like not making buffs drop when the buffer dies would help, groups may be more willing to accept slightly lower buffs from their in group buffers. When I first started RvRing killing the buffer early on was all part of the tactics, but the game has moved on and killing the buffing classes makes very little difference now.

A buffing NPC in the frontiers whose buffs only work in the frontiers would also be a good compromise, making do without buffs in PvE is one thing, but competing with fully buffed PvP enemies witihout buffs is completely different.

Finally, I am not sure how you can say "Yes a buffbot will give you an advantage over an unbuffed player but not having a buffbot does not mean you will be at a disadvantage." Requiel. Logically if Buffs give you an advantage then not having them must put you at a disadvantage.

[Lieva]

[quote="Gahn"]I found this quite odd coming from u Requiel]

hmm
Whilst is one of the most sucessful because not one other game (maybe wow is becoming closer in that respect) has RvR like DAoC, *but* alot of people i know dont even like the RvR aspect and prefer the PvE, but because PvE is normally quite similar in other games it is never mentioned as one of the things that makes DAoC successful.

[Cromcruaich]

Think of it another way, without the revenue that bb accounts have generated the plug could already have been pulled on the prydwen server.

[Requiel]

One final point I'd like to make that I don't think has really been addressed is players who have little time. If someone works long hours doing a well paid job, they're going to be unable to play enough to compete in DAoC, so for these people it makes sense to pay someone to PL their character or buy gold or whatever, because their time is worth more than the money it'd cost to buy these services. What is your position on people in this situation? Do you feel they should simply not play because the game doesn't cater to people who can only spend a short time in game each week or perhaps even every few weeks? Ironically I'd have thought these type of people would be your best customer because they use minimal resources yet pay the same rate as anyone. Does shutting down PL/Plat farming not lose you these type of customers? I have a feeling you're going to tell me that you feel people can play with only 30mins a week or so but if so I think that's where our thoughts differ ]

People need to be realistic about what they can achieve with the time and resources they have. The game rewards time invested, the more time you can invest, the greater the reward. If you can only invest a trivial amount of time (half an hour a week) then I'd suggest that a game like DAoC is not the game for you, technically it's possible but realistically your game experience is going to suck. If you can only play for a limited amount of time then you have to accept that you aren't going to get the same reward as someone who can play more than you and adjust your expectations accordingly. Is it fair? Absolutely. It's about the game and what happens in the game, to make it otherwise is to destroy the point of playing in the first place. The argument that your time is worth more than someone elses' is not a valid reason to buy content. Ingame all should be equal, the only difference should be the sum of the game experience for each player.

I found this quite odd coming from u Requiel]

While it may be the unique selling point of the game, content wise the RvR content is by far the minor part. Almost every expansion has specifically been to enhance or add to the PvE content. There are over 300 zones ingame, only around 20 of those are used for PvP. It really is the smallest part of the game and at any time the number of players experiencing RvR content are massively outnumbered by those in PvE.

I'm sorry but again that part is quite untrue, as a solo player u can't get the best gear out there, pair it with the Buffbots unbalance (if u don't have one) and your solo experience will start and finish typing /release.
Also the perception (sp?) that solo players "cheats" somehow the MMO spirit is quite untrue, u know better than me that the "solo" and "non adding" crew tends to build a Community per se which maybe doesn't use in game tools to communicate and keep it alive, but non the less IT is a Community of your game with their rules and so on.

No you can't get the best gear out there solo. What I said was "The game does need to cater for [solo] players by giving them things they can achieve (which DAoC does quite well I think) but I think it is a mistake to open up the whole game to that playstyle."
The game has solo challenges in it, it has content which can be experienced as a solo player. You can level solo if you like, there are a few harder challenges you can acccomplish solo, many quests and encounters. However you cannot accomplish everything solo and I think that is a good thing. The solo RvR community is not what I am referring to when I say that solo play encourages fragmentation of the game community. I'm talking about a game where nearly everybody plays solo in all aspects and has little reason to co-operate with others. That will tend to break a community up as the playstyle encourages isolation. An MMO which encourages group play will forge a stronger community. Group play in this case does not mean FG RvR, it means co-operation and shared challenges in all aspects of the game.

Finally, I am not sure how you can say "Yes a buffbot will give you an advantage over an unbuffed player but not having a buffbot does not mean you will be at a disadvantage." Requiel. Logically if Buffs give you an advantage then not having them must put you at a disadvantage.

Of course it puts you at a disadvantage. WhatI said though was that not having a buffbot does not mean that you are always unbuffed.