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Ovi
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Post by Ovi »

Xest wrote:Yeah but as I say, doesn't this just hide the problem? From the comments I've seen most people's complaint is that Pallys and Shammies are overpowered, surely instead of opening them up to more people they should be trimming them down so they're more on par with the other classes to get a better overall balance of class populations than have these two particular classes being vastly greater in number?
I don't think it hides it. I don't PvP much, so how over-powered they are in PvP I don't really know. But certainly in PvE terms they are far from over-powered.

My current guild has a shortage of paladins, hardly the sign of an over-powered class.

When I was playing Horde on PvP server if I saw a Pally at least I knew he wasn't going to kill me... I might not kill him either, but still ... :)

Cernos
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Post by Cernos »

Xest wrote:Yeah but as I say, doesn't this just hide the problem? From the comments I've seen most people's complaint is that Pallys and Shammies are overpowered, surely instead of opening them up to more people they should be trimming them down so they're more on par with the other classes to get a better overall balance of class populations than have these two particular classes being vastly greater in number?
If Shammies and Pallys are so overpowered, why is it then that the census stats show that these classes aren't vastly greater in number?

See the Warcraft Census

Shaman is 5% of the player base, Pally is 7%. If you double that (because currently only one realm can play them) then that's still only 10% and 14% respectively. Which means Shaman is below average in terms of player population and Pally is slightly above average. Even if more players try these classes out after the changes, it's unlikely to change the fact that in the endgame raids there's a limited need for these classes (esp Shaman).

Play either of these classes to 60, then see if you still want to believe the myths people put out about them being overpowered. No classes in WoW are overpowered in regular gear. Put some epics on almost any class and things rapidly get out of hand, it's the gear arms race which is the issue.

I can't speak for Pally, never played one. But where the Shaman is concerned I know that the overpowered myth comes about because a Shaman is relatively strong at lower levels, and most peoples first impressions of running into one at low levels sticks with them. But post level 50 the Shaman class really fades (classic hybrid problem) and in the endgame they are mediocre with no focused role in groups and raids (again classic hybrid problem).

Whilst allowing Shaman and Pally to cross realm is a horrible move by Blizzard in terms of game storyline and atmosphere, in terms of game balance perhaps it'll stop some of the whining. And also, once all the Alliance whiners get to actually play a Shaman they might realise that things aren't all they expected. Maybe then the class will finally get the fixes it needs.

Xest
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Post by Xest »

Cernos wrote:If Shammies and Pallys are so overpowered, why is it then that the census stats show that these classes aren't vastly greater in number?

See the Warcraft Census

Shaman is 5% of the player base, Pally is 7%. If you double that (because currently only one realm can play them) then that's still only 10% and 14% respectively. Which means Shaman is below average in terms of player population and Pally is slightly above average. Even if more players try these classes out after the changes, it's unlikely to change the fact that in the endgame raids there's a limited need for these classes (esp Shaman).

Play either of these classes to 60, then see if you still want to believe the myths people put out about them being overpowered. No classes in WoW are overpowered in regular gear. Put some epics on almost any class and things rapidly get out of hand, it's the gear arms race which is the issue.

I can't speak for Pally, never played one. But where the Shaman is concerned I know that the overpowered myth comes about because a Shaman is relatively strong at lower levels, and most peoples first impressions of running into one at low levels sticks with them. But post level 50 the Shaman class really fades (classic hybrid problem) and in the endgame they are mediocre with no focused role in groups and raids (again classic hybrid problem).

Whilst allowing Shaman and Pally to cross realm is a horrible move by Blizzard in terms of game storyline and atmosphere, in terms of game balance perhaps it'll stop some of the whining. And also, once all the Alliance whiners get to actually play a Shaman they might realise that things aren't all they expected. Maybe then the class will finally get the fixes it needs.
Fair enough just going from comments in forums, since WoW was released everyone's said Shammys are by far the best class but never played one personally. Was always told the reason I found WoW dull and repetitive is because druids are one of the crappest classes at levelling but not too bad at PvP and that I should level a shammy instead :p

One thing though, just cos a class isn't high in number doesn't mean it isn't overpowered ;) Animists/Bainshees in DAoC are really low in population numbers yet entirely undefeatable in seige situations when there's a few of them. I'd imagine WoW if anything is effected even less to mass-flocking to overpowered classes due to WoW being a game mainly filled with casual players who for the most part don't give a shit about competitive gaming also.
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Shi
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Post by Shi »

[quote="Xest"]Fair enough just going from comments in forums, since WoW was released everyone's said Shammys are by far the best class but never played one personally. Was always told the reason I found WoW dull and repetitive is because druids are one of the crappest classes at levelling but not too bad at PvP and that I should level a shammy instead :p

One thing though, just cos a class isn't high in number doesn't mean it isn't overpowered ]

WoW is the same as any other game with competitiveness Xest :)
Now everybody rolls a warlock since they are really strong in PvP and ' own' most if not all classes.
Shamans were indeed overpowered back then at release but since they been succesivelly nerfed, even the last patch called ' shaman review' gimped them in some aspects, but oki, they still a hyper fun class to me :) and i'd recommend it as Horde side (till xpack, *g* ) to anyone.
I played a pally till lvl 42 only so dunno bout the endgame raiding but from what i hear pallys are by far better raiding class that shamans are.That is a major concern for shamans as for what will be their role in raids.
Tbh i don't care much bout this, but i'm more concerned about the uniqueness of it to the horde side. Is bit like this thing been metnioned here once about UO, when they put samurais into it. Well I feel exactly like this, ' wtf is that crap'
Pallys are Allies, Shamans Horde, and let it stay this way.
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Post by <ankh> »

I don't play WoW but I would get upset if they started to give the same classes to both sides...but thats just me :)

/Ankh

Xest
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Post by Xest »

Shishi wrote:WoW is the same as any other game with competitiveness Xest :)
Well the majority of WoW players are in the socializer and explorer category, these are the non-competitive categories compared to acheivers/killers which are the more competitive areas so a bigger proportion of WoW's playerbase does fit into the non-competitive category than MMOs like DAoC, Planetside and such.
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Kian Macslann
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Post by Kian Macslann »

Shaman have a reputation for being 'overpowered' because they're an offensive hybrid class with impressive burst damage, which makes them do pretty well in PvP 1 on 1 encounters and gives rise to the 'I got pwned by a shammy, NREF!!1!' posts. Take it from me, they aren't unkillable - most shaman builds are heavily mana dependent for damage as well as self- healing and if you can outlast their mana bar they die easily.

For a PvE raiding guild, shammies suffer from the usual problem of hybrids - they don't do any job well enough to replace a specialist (can't tank raid bosses, less DPS and less aggro management than a rogue or mage, less healing power than a good priest) and a 40 man raid doesn't really need generalists so much. They provide some useful utility functions (like self-rez after wipes and some powerful if limited totem buffs) so they get raid spaces for that and as adequate secondary healers.

From what Ive seen paladins are much the same except they are DEFENSIVE hybrids, they don't hand out the same burst damage but they take a lot of killing.

Ovi
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Post by Ovi »

From raiding on both sides of the fence, I think Pally's are the better of the 2 for PvE raiding.

Whilst Shaman Totems are nice, the Buffs a Paladin provides are better and generally less situational. With no Shaman you don't really miss them, with no Pally it does make a noticeable difference.

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Post by Treeeebeard »

Although I dont play WoW anymore and never realy played past 41 (Might Roll a hutner on darksorrow jsut to waste time over the summer holiday) I dont realy aggree with blizzard given the other realm eachovers unique class, But at the same time i think quite abit of the debate (Mainly storyline ones) comes down to people sterotyping Alliance as good, Horde as Bad, though when playing Horde i never got that impression at all, I felt Horde seemed to be more like outcasts then dark evil bad guys, And the alliance just seemed to be "You dont look nice, am gonan kill you" kinda thing, I havnt played any of the previous warcraft games, But my friend who has played all the previous ones, Told me thats basicly how it is :P I could be completly wrong, But the way i see it, its jsut Pink skins + night elfs, Vs Uglys :P Unless anyone with more indepth information knows otherwise, I dont see why blood elfs carnt realy be paladins? (Besides the fact, there name and thrist for magic, implys to me they care litle for 'Holyness'... I think i just answerd my own question :P) Also, Blizzard could have atleast atempted a better reason for blood elfs beeing paladins more then "They stole it xD xD"
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Argyleyn
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Post by Argyleyn »

For the lore and story it's certainly very debatable.

From a gameplay pov, it's a pretty good move. It was done mostly with pve in mind, so that Blizzard doesn't have to actually design encounters with 2 different factions in mind, to aleviate some of the boredom of playing a pally/shaman in pve (because they are unique to each faction they are just pigeonholed into buffers/secondary healers and you can't design stuff around them as then the other faction can't defeat the encounter-see encounters like Instructor Razuvius for priests, you couldn't design something similar for pallies/shamans) and to give horde a direly needed pve boost. It will save them from some pvp whines as well propably, but I don't think that played a major role in their decision, pvp was pretty even before that anyway.

Personally I think many people whined and moaned about it but in the end noone really cared much, apart from the raid crew which is somewhat happy.

As for the classes being overpowered, they aren't really, shamans and paladins were pretty good in the first months of launch but with high end itemisation kicking in and all classes getting to 60 and having the intended gear, they are pretty much as good as any other class if not below many of them. Shaman is an amazing example of a class that's totally uber when you are in a poor gear vs poor geat situation but quickly lose efficiency/damage when they go into a epic gear vs epic gear situation.
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